[Andy Mayhew]

Anyway, just off to my secret extinct volcano to check on the phials of super-mega 'flu 666 666 666

[TrevP]

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Peter H - 26/10/2007 13:32

ou mean to say you were being serious in suggesting vasectomising (spp) everyone over 16?

Vasectomising....interesting word. No, I wasn't suggesting that, I was suggesting that as one of the only near 100% failsafe methods that a government could call for. (yes I know vasectomies can be reversed) 

[Andy Mayhew]

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Chris Alder - 26/10/2007 13:16

Peter, the reason you and everyone (including me) else likes those things you listed is becuase we don't have to spend winter for example chopping down trees to burn to stay warm.

Some of us wish they did have to spend winter chopping trees to stay warm ;)  One day :-)  

[Peter H]

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ldavidcooke - 26/10/2007 14:52 Hey Peter; Are you suggesting that we advocate a life style such as I have referenced in this essay I submitted to class on the 27th of Sept. 07? "So what are we to do? If we believe in right and wrong and that the increase of carbon loading in the atmosphere is wrong then we must deal with the issue of which is the greater wrong. Do we starve our families or abandon our homes and live on the street near where we work in order to reduce our impact. Do we stop heating our homes with electricity and oil and natural gas going instead to wood fireplaces? Do we have the wood resources to make this change? What about lights, do we live with LED flashlights and the light of the fire in the fireplace to read by at night? Where do we plug in our computers? Do we go back to wood stoves and ovens for cooking our meals, what are we going to do with all the microwave ovens? Do we all abandon our cars and switch to horse drawn carriages and bicycles? Who is going to feed and house the horses? What are we going to do with all the horse waste? What are we going to do for the cleaning and drying of our clothes, do we change over to paper clothes we can throw away at the end of the day? Where are we going to get all the paper? It is clear that to maintain our current society we are likely not going to move backward unless there is simply no more fossil fuel. Are there alternative fuels; yes; but. most either have a higher carbon load, cause increased pollution or are difficult to formulate in sufficient quantities. The most interesting thing is that if you look at the amount of time and work that goes into maintaining a home today it is less then ½ of the time 80 years ago and less then ¼ of the effort of 200 years ago. What is to be done to deal with the relationship between resources and population? Do we treat the earth like an overcrowded life raft in the chilly open sea of space and start making decisions of who to throw overboard or deny food or water? Maybe we need to take to heart the basic practices of backwoodsmanship that have been practiced for the last 40 years. Maybe we need to change our society to the point that we return to the life of the nomadic Indian or possibly the idea of a lack of individual ownership and start teaching our young about the concept of joint ownership. The attached link relates to the access to a shared resource that is made available to backpackers and old growth area or primitive condition camping. Though the facilities are not the same as camping without any amenities, the example is about the lowest impact that a dwelling can have in today’s society. http://parksandrecre...er%20Manual.pdf Camping like this begs the question, how long do you think it would be possible for a person to survive like this without outside resources? What if the area was designated as a virgin/old growth forest and you were not allowed to burn brush? What if you had a community of 100 people, what if you had a population of 1000 people, can you imagine a flourishing community of 10,000 people living under these conditions? When nearly 60% of the cities and towns in the US exceed 10,000 people the land and water resources, let alone heat and transportation are insufficient to be supported by the surrounding land." Dave Cooke

The choice isn't between incredible excess or loin cloths?

Let me quote 'P3' over on netweather who says what I think better than I can :

"We live lives of incredible comfort and preposterous waste and excess. What we do need to do is think a bit more about our choices, and get out of the consumer mindset that has been brainwashed into us for decades now. I agree with you that little things on their own are not going to be enough, but they can draw our minds to the bigger picture, and contribute to an understanding of what sort of world we have come to live in, and what sort of world we want our chidren to live in."

I agree. 

[TrevP]

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Andy Mayhew - 26/10/2007 13:49

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TrevP - 26/10/2007 13:24

This report is part of the 'same old same old' agenda in trying to justify why those countries that want to develop shouldn't do so.

I totally disagree with you on this one Trev. This is not about stopping 3rd world countries develop - it's about helping them.

We agree to disagree. (Not very often, I hasten to add).  'We' don't help them Andy.  We 'Tell' them what they can and can't develop. (Iran are being told that as I type). If they've got a resource that 'we' can utilise, we take it at very little reward. If it wasn't for oil Iraq wouldn't be an American military base.  If Darfur had been resource rich, we would have been there quicker than a rat up a drainpipe.

As I've said, a global call to all nations and a sensible solution rather than an imposition on developing nations is what is called for. But it aint gonna happen. 

[Peter H]

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TrevP - 26/10/2007 15:09

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Andy Mayhew - 26/10/2007 13:49

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TrevP - 26/10/2007 13:24

This report is part of the 'same old same old' agenda in trying to justify why those countries that want to develop shouldn't do so.

I totally disagree with you on this one Trev. This is not about stopping 3rd world countries develop - it's about helping them.

We agree to disagree. (Not very often, I hasten to add). 'We' don't help them Andy. We 'Tell' them what they can and can't develop. (Iran are being told that as I type). If they've got a resource that 'we' can utilise, we take it at very little reward. If it wasn't for oil Iraq wouldn't be an American military base. If Darfur had been resource rich, we would have been there quicker than a rat up a drainpipe.

As I've said, a global call to all nations and a sensible solution rather than an imposition on developing nations is what is called for. But it aint gonna happen.

I tend to agree with this. We (us, the west) do rip off the weaker than us - because resources are in short supply and we have power to grab them we let market forces take their course.

indeed, I think we might be, though not obviously, saying the same thing o|

So, I don't understand you opposition to the collective body - the UN? What's needed is collective action? Again, I agree it aint going to happen, but good things don't happen without allmight effort.

[ldavidcooke]

Hey Peter;

Actually I have to disagree, most people I meet are doing their best they can with limited resources. You must be talking about city people who can only do so much, most of the waste they deal with is outside of their control. As far as I can see the only place there is an example of extravagance relates to how things come packaged from the distributors of the farm factories or the excesses by converting what was supposed to be Utility vehicles to a Luxury Soccer-Mom Station Wagon Utilization Vehicle.

(Of course the drivers for this was you could not get large V-6 and V-8 engines in normal consumer vehicles. So they converted all of the utilitarian tools to luxury rides and have corrupted the entire meaning of the Utility vehicle. It is now nearly impossible to get a work vehicle any longer without the rhubarb and hubbub from the dealers trying to up-sell you stuff you do not want and then charging 4 times of the value because of the false demand created by the Luxury SUV market.)

Then we have all of that plastic and foam and cardboard that goes into packaging our foods to keep down the disease ridden pests and to allow the consumer to see how fresh the product they are buying is. Keep in mind if you do not grow and store it yourself there is no telling what else comes in contact with your food and household stuffs.

Sorry Peter, actually the real source of most of the waste today are either reactions to try to get around the limitations place on them by government directives or they are caused by the drive by environmentalists to try to stop Sprawl. In truth, nearly every issue we are dealing with that is resulting in excessive waste is due to an attempt to insure the things in our homes and the foods we consume are fresh and clean leading to lower disease, which increases the population and then drives the demand for more waste!

Now is that not a KITA!

Dave

[John Mason]

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ldavidcooke - 26/10/2007 22:14 Hey Peter; Actually I have to disagree, most people I meet are doing their best they can with limited resources. You must be talking about city people who can only do so much, most of the waste they deal with is outside of their control. As far as I can see the only place there is an example of extravagance relates to how things come packaged from the distributors of the farm factories or the excesses by converting what was supposed to be Utility vehicles to a Luxury Soccer-Mom Station Wagon Utilization Vehicle. (Of course the drivers for this was you could not get large V-6 and V-8 engines in normal consumer vehicles. So they converted all of the utilitarian tools to luxury rides and have corrupted the entire meaning of the Utility vehicle. It is now nearly impossible to get a work vehicle any longer without the rhubarb and hubbub from the dealers trying to up-sell you stuff you do not want and then charging 4 times of the value because of the false demand created by the Luxury SUV market.) Then we have all of that plastic and foam and cardboard that goes into packaging our foods to keep down the disease ridden pests and to allow the consumer to see how fresh the product they are buying is. Keep in mind if you do not grow and store it yourself there is no telling what else comes in contact with your food and household stuffs. Sorry Peter, actually the real source of most of the waste today are either reactions to try to get around the limitations place on them by government directives or they are caused by the drive by environmentalists to try to stop Sprawl. In truth, nearly every issue we are dealing with that is resulting in excessive waste is due to an attempt to insure the things in our homes and the foods we consume are fresh and clean leading to lower disease, which increases the population and then drives the demand for more waste! Now is that not a KITA! Dave

Sorry, David, but I have to say the quote Peter posted is absolutely spot-on. We MUST learn to address this - and it is my hope that you yourself may become active in the campaign :)

Cheers - John 

[ldavidcooke]

Hey Dr. Mason;

Amazing to see you here. BTW; however, if you go to Peter's link and read a little further down to BrickFielder's response you will see the other end of the spectrum. In short, there are two sides in every discussion, the problem is the one that you find is something you do not like in yourself is usually the one you focus on. That many complain about the few and ignore the many is a bit disillusioning. Time management and the pushing of the work onto someone who can do the same task with less effort or cost to the individual is the primary driver of waste.

This is a function of human nature and the culture and is not a variable. If the demand for time is such that you can choose to either go to the farm and can beans in July for consumption over the next six months fantastic. However, many people rely on the farm factories to can the products for them and they pay almost the same or a little less to the farm factory. Meaning the time and effort to use reusable containers is likely too expensive, requires too much time or the skill has simply been lost. Plus the reusable container is glass and not a metal can. If the farm factory was using glass and it got broken in transportation or stocking it would increase the cost and increase the waste. And this is just the beginning of the rant I could run up.

I am very sorry; however, there are clear reasons for the choices of the technology and the choices that are made by both the consumer and the supplier that results in waste. Before I join on to the bandwagon of being an active environmentalist they had better clean up their house before they start pointing fingers, in my opinion. Now if we can get confirmation of the root cause I will be glad to stand shoulder to shoulder with the team working on the resolution.

As for joining a campaign, I have specified the design for a major VAWT innovation as well as a marine version for Tidal Stream power. I have been a major proponent of the move to LED and florescent lighting. I have been a major proponent of the use of low carbon fuels such as LNG or BioGas. I was even picking up neighborhood trash in the middle school yard on Earth Day on April 22 1969. The funny thing none of my designs were geared to reducing CO2, their intent was to reduce the use of carbon and the reduction of NO2 and SO2. In 1972 at the tender age of 14 I design my first Smoke Stack scrubber and sequestration tank using lime and sea water to filter the wastes.

I have no problem joining an organization when they address root cause and work hard to resolve the cause. When all folks do is jump up and down and complain about the way things are without working out how to resolve them, it will be a cold day in Hades before you see me standing at a podium and tauting the "company line".

Instead you will see me around here looking for the root cause, trying to talk folks into raising their heads to get them to help me search out the the truth or root cause. Then hopefully we can take advantage of all the extra minds and bodies on the planet today to work together to resolve the root problem. I am afraid instead I simply end up standing in the middle of two camps taking shots from both sides because I do not adhere to either stand.

Cheers [beer]

Dave

[John Mason]

Hi David,

An interesting take on the ethics/economy thingy from George Monbiot that you might enjoy reading, although you may find yourself at odds with some of his conclusions ;)

The town George is writing about is Machynlleth - he moved here a while back.

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/10/09/bring-on-the-recession/  

Cheers - John 

[ldavidcooke]

Hey Dr. Mason;

Ah contraire', I have no argument. However, I now see the difference of our viewing points that has eluded me up to now.

The idea that an object may be available for purchase is taken by many to be an indication that there might actually be a market for an item. However, here in the US we learn at an early age that not all things that are advertised are due to a market survey suggesting products to carry.

Some products are advertised to differentiate a company from the competition. In short, you may not necessarily want to by a coffin made from Lord Nelson's last ship; however, you may be interested in the leaf patterned cutting board elsewhere in the store. If the coffin got you to open the catalog or walk in the store then it has achieved it's primary purpose what a cost effective marketing program.

Rather then spending 150,000 Pounds on a media wide (Post/TV/Radio) advertising program why not spend only 50,000 Pounds on a coffin and 500 pounds to add it to a monthly print add and let the word of mouth carry the day, which is the most effective do you think...

The problem when there are many participants in the market to get your message heard you can either disappear in the cacophony or Noise of the rest of the hawkers or you can get out the night search lights or float a blimp or run decorations that capture the eye and hopefully the curiosity of the potential consumer.

So before jumping to the obvious it is usually useful to study the drivers behind to obvious a bit...

Dave

It's [s] time!