[Mesogeiakos]

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maxcrc1 - 10/4/2010 04:21

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Big Dave's Gusset - 23/3/2010 18:27

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storm63 - 23/3/2010 18:10

Found this for Italy http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fit.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FClima_italiano

Go to bottom of page and click on Number 8 link

Thanks Ian, trouble is again this is a "secondhand" source being a weather news and views type site and not run by the Italian Met Office, with no link/origin for the data. However, that they do not note the 48.5 °C reading is probably a good indication of its unofficial and unreliable nature. Still they probably felt the need to compile this because it's not easily found (if at all) on the Meteoam site (possibly one has to scrutinise the data for each individual station). The curious thing is a "curiosità" page at http://clima.meteoam.it/curiosita.php which gives world figures, but try finding anything for Italy alone...

Not at all. Catenanuova readings is 100% OFFICIAL AND CORRECT.
Dozens of nearby stations gave similar temperatures during the brutal heat wave of August 1999.
It is a AUTOMATIC REAL TIME station OF SIAS CIRCUIT: therefore it is an official station.
You should know how Italy works in Meteorology: Aeronautica Militare DOESNt MANTAIN ANY station at the moment, but they gave the maintenance of their main circuit to the company ENAV.
This short list of stations is a very small percentage of all italian stations , because most of italian stations are mantained by the local regional meteorological stations.Therefore there are several nets of stations and their data should be checked into these databases.

SIAS is Sicily have very modern stations equipped by automatic stations with modern filters, for example Palermo Observatory has currently a station worth 30000 euros , of better quality of most stations around the world.
In the brutal 1999 heat wave several sicilian station recorded 48C.
That was not the first time 48C was recorded in Sicily, first time was in July 1962 with 48.0C at Paterno (near Catenanuova), than Plano Falzone also recorded 48.2C, and so on...
The "piana di Catania" zone is by far the hottest in Europe during these circustances and in summer maxima average is around 40C much hotter than the zone around Athens.
In August 1999 a pure 30C at 850hpa grabbed Sicily with sirocco winds crossed the central mountains and redescended hot and dry for downslope effect ,compressed hot air lied into the Catania plais where the vulcanic soil further helps strong irradiation.
That was the strongest heat wave ever in Europe, 47C was also recorded in the region of Calabria at Locri.

Catenanuova holds the European highest reliable temperature ever without any doubt.
Moreover i had Catenanuova station checked by a friend of mine who went there 3 years ago....it is at almost 1.9m above the ground,and equipment and screen modern and well mantained.

It's hard to believe that Italy considers this 48.5 official since as I said before my understanding is that Aeronautica Militare in Italy is Greece's equivelant EMY (HNMS) which are the sole organisations within respective countries to provide ''officials''

If this was indeed a reliable temperature it would defenetelly have passed the WMO scrutiny and Italy would consider it official.Why has not the World Meteorological Organisation accepted this as Europe's highest and accepts the 48.0 in Athens?Do u happen to know?Are u Italian maybe?

Also what are the other areas that recorded 48 in 1999 in Sicily?I dont remember any such example and I have checked a lot for the highest temp in Europe.Which were the exact stations that recorded 48 in Sicily and how is this data verifiable.Please let us know its very intruiging

[Mesogeiakos]

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maxcrc1 - 10/4/2010 04:30

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Mesogeiakos - 23/3/2010 22:05

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HSEA - 23/3/2010 20:28

Id be surprised if the record was anywhere else than the Seville/Cordoba area of spain; It just looks right, so close to the Sahara, and such a narrow strait of gibraltar. That being said, the Shetlands record (28c) amazingly is marginally warmer than the Scillies (27c), so i guess it could be somewhere surprising like Sicily.

I believe that the Seville temperatures are a myth generally.The wider area of Andalusia near Seville and Cordova do get extremely hot but still we get areas in Sicily and Greece that consistently top Seville's extreme temperatures.


What is more suprising though is that generally people all over Europe have not taken a closer look to the Attica basin and the wider metropolitan Athens area in terms of how hot it can actually get over there.I grew up in Athens and let me tell you....boy,you would not want to be in Athens during July.It is sweltering

The geomorphology of the Attica basin is such that it favors extreme summer temperatures.Athens is protected from the cold winds by 3 huge mountains in the North,East and West (Parnitha,Penteli,Imitos) forming a rain shadow and leaving it totally unprotected from the south thus making the whole of the Greek capital prone to the Saharan winds (which we call in Greece -Livas winds) that can bring temperatures up dramatically.

In fact I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that Athens each and single decade in the 20th century has had higher official extreme summer temperatures compared to Seville.

The last 35 years Athens metropolitan area has registered numerous times official temperatures over 44C in various Athenian suburbs and I am certain that Seville has not managed a proper and official 44C more than 3 or 4 times in the same period.

The Thriasion basin where the Athenian suburb of Elefsina is situated has been consistently giving the highest summer temperature readings of Greece,not to mention its unique dry climate which makes it virtually a semi-arid place within the Greek capital!!!

Generally I believe that parts of the Attica basin could potentially be Europe's warmest place in terms of extreme summer temperatures. We know for a fact that the Greek capital ironically is Greece's hottest place during the summer.Check out the dynamics of the Attica basin in terms of extreme high temperatures.You would be suprised.

I wouldn t say it is a myth. A Myth implies the temperature didn t exist.
They existed, but they were overestimated.
The readings of 51.0C ,50.0C and 49.6C and some others (50.5C at Riodades in Portugal, 48.8C at la puebla de cazalla, 50.0C at berja, 49.0C at Moratalla,etc etc) exist but they were taken under not proper exposure conditions therefore are HIGHLY overestimated and cannot be taken into account.
Those Seville records were dismissed by Spain authority 80 years ago already.
1-the instrument wasn t proper
2-the "Fascistol" screen type inadequate
3-the position on the top of a roof terrible

I estimate the readings were well 3C above the real air temperature.

Regarding the european warmest places

1-Catania plains are unbeatable for the multiple conditions i describe above (sirocco overheated by downslope effect and the vulcanic soil). Temperatures between 47C and 48.5C have been recorded in several occasions.
2- Attica
3-Murcia plains.

During the terrible heat wave of July 1978 temperatures in some parts of Murcia exceeded 47C, but the coverage of the area was not like today's. Hottest parts of Murcia plains had no stations.
I think potentially 48C could have been reached there.We need to wait a new +28C at 850hpa with a subsidence effect like in July 1978.

When we talk about european hottest spots we have to distinguish between hottest in summer averages or hottest under extreme circunstances.
Ok, in the first case the Andalucia plains are surely hotter than Murcia plains and Athens basin.
But in the second case they don t reach the extreme temperatures above 47C than in these two places.
Andalucia is extremely hot in summer but during extreme conditions the orography doesn t allow "aggregated valued" like phoenized winds which are a "pro" in Murcia for example.

The Catania plains are on top in both cases:extreme conditions and average daily summer temperatures (only daily, because the vulcanic soil allows strong irradiation and night temperatures are fresh).

I said in my first post Catania area does seem to have a strong dynamic,however I beg to differ as Athens has defenetelly higher average summer temperatures both compared to Seville and Catania area.If I am not mistaken Athens has an average July of 28.0 and Attica does have a unique combination of this phoen winds in Eleusina and the very high average daily temperatures.

Athens has officially recorded twice 48.0 in 1977 and a 47.5 in 2007 and those are officials!If off course we dont accept the 48.7 which I believe is still regarded as Greece's record from the National Observatory of Athens...But as we know EMY(HNMS) always has the final word inside Greece which is like the case of Scia and Aeronautica Militare in Italy...


I believe that the WMO is right that is giving the true record of Europe in Athens since Italy does not seem to accept this 48.5 officially.I am sure that if Italy had considered this value as official it would have passed this to WMO...wouldnt it??

[Mesogeiakos]

I think the only way to verify if this temperature is official within Italy is to see what the official Authorities say.I have emailed Aeronautica Militare and waiting for their response,lets see what Italy says officially first

[BUTTERFLY]

On page 225 of "Weatherwise" by Philip Eden (Macmillan 1995) "the temperature has been known to reach 49 deg. C. (120 deg. F.) in Seville, but the highest value ever officially recorded in Europe appears to be 50.5 C. (123 deg. F.) at Los Riodades, Portugal."

I have pencilled in that this was on 4th August 1881, and also the following

see www.dandantheweatherman.com/wortrviaaug.htm (WHICH STATES: Aug 4 1881 Iberia and Europe's hottest day on record. Temperatures in Seville, Spain reach 50.0C whilst across the border in Los Riodades registers both Europe's and Portugal's record high of 50.5 C.).


AND

51 deg. C. reported at Seville, Spain - see http:www.mherrara.org/temp.htm

However viewing the latter link only gives two figures of 50 deg. C. for Spain, at Berja & Alhama, and it says besides both "* very questioned, likely taken under not proper exposure conditions"

Of course the 1881 figure is a long time ago and exposure, etc, may not have been standard. I seem to remember hearing that it was due to a fohn effect.

As with the world's highest temperature (i.e. 58.0 deg. C. at Al' azizyah, Libya, on 13th September 1922, not recognised by the Libyan Ministry of Communications, or 56.7 deg. C. at Death Valley, California, U.S.A. on 10th July 1913; interestingly both sites are outside the tropics) it is not always easy to decide on the official figure for Europe.

[Mesogeiakos]

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BUTTERFLY - 10/4/2010 23:35

On page 225 of "Weatherwise" by Philip Eden (Macmillan 1995) "the temperature has been known to reach 49 deg. C. (120 deg. F.) in Seville, but the highest value ever officially recorded in Europe appears to be 50.5 C. (123 deg. F.) at Los Riodades, Portugal."

I have pencilled in that this was on 4th August 1881, and also the following

see www.dandantheweatherman.com/wortrviaaug.htm (WHICH STATES: Aug 4 1881 Iberia and Europe's hottest day on record. Temperatures in Seville, Spain reach 50.0C whilst across the border in Los Riodades registers both Europe's and Portugal's record high of 50.5 C.).


AND

51 deg. C. reported at Seville, Spain - see http:www.mherrara.org/temp.htm

However viewing the latter link only gives two figures of 50 deg. C. for Spain, at Berja & Alhama, and it says besides both "* very questioned, likely taken under not proper exposure conditions"

Of course the 1881 figure is a long time ago and exposure, etc, may not have been standard. I seem to remember hearing that it was due to a fohn effect.

As with the world's highest temperature (i.e. 58.0 deg. C. at Al' azizyah, Libya, on 13th September 1922, not recognised by the Libyan Ministry of Communications, or 56.7 deg. C. at Death Valley, California, U.S.A. on 10th July 1913; interestingly both sites are outside the tropics) it is not always easy to decide on the official figure for Europe.

Why do they still quote this temps?I mean if Spain and Portugal do not recognize them why do they keep on mentioning it.We all know they are not recognized by any official authority in the world

As for Libya,how can the Libyan Ministry recognize it? At the time Libya was under Italian rule the Ministry didnt even exist.The data are provided by the Italian authorities which I know recognize this temperature and also the WMO has a footnote saying it needs further research though tentatively accepts it for the time being

The 1million dollar question we need to be asking is if Italy accepts Catenanuova temperature.That is the challenge I think.Let's see if I ll get an answer from the Aeronautica Militare in Italy

[Dave K]

Maximiliano (maxcrc1) - thanks for joining the forum and posting here. I use your sites (the  http://www.mherrera.org/temp.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Maxcrc ) very often as a reference, of course we all have to be careful in using the internet as a source because there is much deliberate and accidental misinformation.  It's very good to hear that you know the subject area very well and are diligent in ratifying the information and background on the data in your websites. At least I have the opportunity here to thank you for your work.

The question over accepted maximum temperatures and exposure of instrumentation is something we have here with the questioning of the 38.5 °C at Brogdale, Faversham in 2003, as it is claimed that this site was compromised too by shelter from a tall hedge (which you note in your footnotes at the wikipedia site).

It just seems that record maximum temperatures are all the more prone to questioning and suspicion, even though as you point out, there may be topographic features which influence and cause extreme maxima at localities in perfectly valid ways that are not apparent from the synoptics, stats and from maps. Not to mention that there is inevitably some national pride over accuracy and the accolade of hottest place in Europe.   Yet I don't remember such controversy over extreme minima too...

Not that it has any bearing but the one time I was in Sicily ( below Etna area, one February a few years ago) it was cold and snowy, the coldest winter weather for over 50 years according to the locals!

[Mesogeiakos]

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Big Dave's Gusset - 11/4/2010 12:06

Not to mention that there is inevitably some national pride over accuracy and the accolade of hottest place in Europe

Funny you mention this as I must be a minority of a minority within a minority of the Greeks who actually want this accolade :D
Most of my fellow nationals are obsessed with snow,cold and generally things that they lack back home!In fact some get really irritated if they are told that Greece has this accolade officially from the WMO

However I do want this accolade for my county and in fact my birthplace (as I was born in Athens) as the heat records all over the world have fascinated me from a young age.

Back on the topic,I do concur that Maximiliano is doing a very good job in collecting and collating data from all over the world,but as you hinted earlier there is this element of national pride and that is why I will have to be mean and bad and question him on whether Italy accepts officially this 48.5C (since I assume from his name that he must be Italian)

All the exteme records as you said can be easily questioned.An automated unmanned station in Catenanuova which is basically a small village is a prime example of why its validity can be questionned academically regardless if the reading,the setup,the location and exposure conditions of the station appear right.

Every country at a national level sets ups its standards (compliant with WMO guidelines) which are usually far too stringer for an amateur to conform with and I take it most supervisors of automated stations are indeed amateurs.No one expects an amateur supervisor of a station to be a PhD holder.

That is why I need to press this issue and get a response from the official Italian authorities and not only from Maximiliano's sites and sources since there could be some kind of bias for the aforementioned reasons.However I must stress that I also get excited and overexagerate when Greece is involved especially in terms of warm records.

Anyhow I have already contacted the Aeronautica Militare and hope they ll get back to me.I have also contacted
Dr Randy Cerveny who is the World Meteorological Organization Rapporteur for Climate Extremes to ask his opinion regarding the Catenanuova temperature and whether or not from his research Italy considers this official.

Once I have news I will let you all know

[Dave K]

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Mesogeiakos - 12/4/2010 06:31 Just an update.. Dr Randy Cerveny has suggested that the World temperature record of Libya will be re-examined for its validity by the WMO Please go to last slide http://www.public.as.../~atrsc/wmo.htm

Thanks Pit :)

[Mesogeiakos]

Persistence pays off after all!I am copy pasting below an extract of the response by Aeronautica Militare regarding Italy's officially recorded highest temp

Which means official Italian authorities do NOT consider Catenanuova record official since it is not in their direct control and not under the WMO guidelines as I had guessed



Dear Sir,

with reference to your e-mail of March 25th 2010, we inform you that the extremes of maximum temperatures resulting from our official archive have been measured by the weather station of Bari Palese(ENAV) on July 2007,with 45.6°C, followed by Catania Sigonella(AM) with 45.4°C, registered on July 1998.These stations belong to our net, managed by Italian Air ForceMeteorological Service and ENAV (Civil Aviation), and follow the strict standards required by WMO (World Meteorological Organization) on measurement procedures.

With Best Regards,

Lt. Filippo Maimone

I Sec. Climatology
CNMCA - Italian Air Force Met ServicePratica di Mare, Pomezia (ROME)
Tel. +39 06 9129 3895
Fax. +39 06 9129 3254



P.S So for Italy we should consider 45.6 in Bari as the official temp record compliant with WMO guidelines and procedures that comes from the official Italian authorities

[Mesogeiakos]

Please find in the other thread ''Italy's response'' the answer regarding official temperature records from the sole official authority in Italy which is Aeronautica Militare.
Could someone transfer this thread over here?as I opened it by mistake and was meaning to post it here

[Mesogeiakos]

Also I was checking this Catania Sigonella place with the 45.4 record and as mentioned above this area is inside the Piana di Catania and it seems pretty representative of the Catania plains in terms of temperatures.

I believe we could potentially have higher temperatures over there than this 45.4 but I think it is unlikely that the Catenanuova temperature is credible since it does not seem to comply with WMO procedures especially if it is an automated and I think unmanned station.

But off course we cannot exclude temps close to the record of Athens in any of these areas neither in the Murcia plains in Andalusia nor in the Catania plains

However I stand by my conviction that the Attica basin in extreme events has the strongest dynamic in Europe for recording absolute extremes.I know it,I grew up there... it's just inique :)

[Mesogeiakos]

and by inique I mean unique...this is what happens when one types too fast :)

I dont want Dave (BDG) on my case [hehe]

[Ian Williams]

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Mesogeiakos - 13/4/2010 10:09 Persistence pays off after all!I am copy pasting below an extract of the response by Aeronautica Militare regarding Italy's officially recorded highest temp Which means official Italian authorities do NOT consider Catenanuova record official since it is not in their direct control and not under the WMO guidelines as I had guessed Dear Sir, with reference to your e-mail of March 25th 2010, we inform you that the extremes of maximum temperatures resulting from our official archive have been measured by the weather station of Bari Palese(ENAV) on July 2007,with 45.6°C, followed by Catania Sigonella(AM) with 45.4°C, registered on July 1998.These stations belong to our net, managed by Italian Air ForceMeteorological Service and ENAV (Civil Aviation), and follow the strict standards required by WMO (World Meteorological Organization) on measurement procedures. With Best Regards, Lt. Filippo Maimone I Sec. Climatology CNMCA - Italian Air Force Met ServicePratica di Mare, Pomezia (ROME) Tel. +39 06 9129 3895 Fax. +39 06 9129 3254 P.S So for Italy we should consider 45.6 in Bari as the official temp record compliant with WMO guidelines and procedures that comes from the official Italian authorities

Well done Pit for clearing this up, but of course records do get broken and maybe in the near future another country may beat the Athens figure, or indeed Greece itself may exceed the 48.0C  666

[Ian Williams]

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Ian Williams - 22/3/2010 10:20

Europe	48.0 °C (118.4 °F)	Athens, Greece	1977-07-10[13]
Austria	39.7 °C (103.5 °F)	Dellach im Drautal	1983-07-27[14]
Belarus	38.0 °C(100.4 °F)	Vassilyevichy, Homiel Voblast	1946-08-20[15]
Belgium	38.8 °C (102 °F)	Uccle	1947-06-27
Bulgaria	45.2 °C (113.3 °F)	Sadovo, Plovdiv Province	1916-08-05[16]
Croatia	42.8 °C (109 °F)	Ploce	1998-08-05[17]
Czech Republic	40.2 °C (104.4 °F)	Prague-Uhríneves	1983-07-27[18]
Denmark	36.4 °C (97.5 °F)	Holstebro, Midtjylland	1975-08-10[19]
Estonia	35.6 °C (96.1 °F)	Võru	1992-08-11[20]
Finland	35.9 °C (96.6 °F)	Turku	1914-07-09 [21]
France	43.4 °C (110.1 °F)	Sartène	2009-07-23[22]
Germany	40.2 °C (104.4 °F)	Gärmersdorf bei Amberg / Karlsruhe & Freiburg	1983-07-27 / 2003-08-13 [23]
Hungary	41.9 °C (107.4 °F)	Kiskunhalas	2007-07-08[24]
Iceland	30.5 °C (86.9 °F)	Teigarhorn, Djúpivogur	1939-06-22[25][26]
Ireland	33.3 °C (91.9 °F)	Kilkenny Castle, County Kilkenny	1887-06-26[27]
Italy	47.0 °C (116.6 °F)	Perdasdefogu, Sardinia	1983-07-28[28]
Lithuania	37.5 °C (99.5 °F)	Zarasai, Utena County	1994-07-30[29]
Macedonia	46.7 ° C(112.6 °F)	Demir Kapija, Demir Kapija Municipality	2000-07-05[30]
Moldova	41.5 ° C(106.7 °F)	Camenca, Camenca sub-district	2007-07-21[31]
Netherlands	38.6 °C (102 °F)	Warnsveld	1944-08-23[32]
Norway	35.6 °C (96.1 °F)	Nesbyen, Buskerud	1970-06-20[33]
Poland	40.2 °C (104.4 °F)	Prószków	1921-07-29[34]
Portugal	47.4 °C (117.3 °F)	Amareleja, Beja	2003-08-01[35]
Romania	44.5 °C (112.1 °F)	Ion Sion, Braila County	1951-08-10[36]
Serbia	44.9 °C (112.8 °F)	Smederevska Palanka, Podunavlje District	2007-07-24[37]
Slovakia	40.3 °C (104.5 °F)	Hurbanovo	2007-07-20[38]
Slovenia	40.6 °C (105.1 °F)	Crnomelj	1950-07-05[39]
Spain	47.2 °C (116.9 °F)	Murcia	1994-07-04[40]
Sweden	38.0 °C (100.4 °F)	Ultuna, Uppsala County / Målilla, Kalmar County	1933-07-09 / 1947-06-29[41]
Switzerland	41.5 °C (106.7 °F)	Grono, Locarno	2003-08-11[42]
United Kingdom	38.5 °C (101.3 °F)	Faversham, Kent	2003-08-10[43]

I take it then we can dismiss  Sardinia`s figure?

[Mesogeiakos]

Probably yes this figure can be dismissed as well

Off course there is the question as to if stations outside AM's control are indeed compliant with WMO procedures etc before we can be totally sure.Some amateurs do manage to abide by far too stringer criteria and set of rules but for the time being I would stick with Italy's official position

Also in the list above the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia temp is wrong.They have never recorded over 46C ever

[jonathanwebb]

I think the record for France is higher than 43.4....................I recall Philip Eden mentioning 44C being exceeded at a couple of places in Aug 2003.....also Toulouse recorded 43.9 on 8 August 1923

[Dave K]

WRT FYROM and the accepted maximum temp, the word from the Hydrometeorological Meteorological Service is:

"The highest air temperature of 44.8 °C for the period 1951-2004 was measured On 05.07.2000 in Demir Kapija."

http://www.meteo.gov.mk/MeterolKlimaEkstremni.asp?X=1

[Mesogeiakos]

I think it's the day of responses today:)

Just got this from Dr.Cerveny



Hello,

Many thanks for your kind email regarding the WMO climate and weather extremes archive. We are actually currently investigating several claims of higher temperatures than the Athens Greece extreme temperature. However, we can only certify events which have documented by their respective country's weather service. So if the Italian government has official records of this event, we would be most interested but otherwise, because temperature observations must meet the WMO standards for observation, we cannot certify private records of extreme events. Nevertheless, I will try to contact appropriate Italian authorities to see about that situation.

Many thanks!

Randy Cerveny
WMO Rapporteur of Climate Extremes
President's Professor of Geographical Sciences

[Dave K]

FRANCE

Record is 44.1° at Conqueyrac and Saint-Christol-les-Alès, 12/08/2003 

 

http://www.meteo.fr/meteonet/temps/france/clim/prod/tmd/dept30/TMD300803.pdf

[jonathanwebb]

Thanks for locating those France extremes............and overall, it's certainly a very useful list of extremes being compiled on this thread

Ref Germany, there was also a report of 40.8 at a place called Perl Nenning on 9th August 2003...but I am not sure if it was official 

 

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Big Dave's Gusset - 13/4/2010 17:53 FRANCE

Record is 44.1° at Conqueyrac and Saint-Christol-les-Alès, 12/08/2003 

 

http://www.meteo.fr/meteonet/temps/france/clim/prod/tmd/dept30/TMD300803.pdf