[Ian Williams]

Thought i would start this thread to stop the hijacking of my other thread Highest annual mean temperature thread. This is for anyone to post any weather data that does not relate to the other thread

erreiro	Posted 16/3/2011 10:54 (#616868 - in reply to #570056) Subject: RE: Project Europe: Highest Annual Mean Temperature Trial
Offline	After the first half of March, average temperatures were as follows Malaga Puerto 15,08ºC (except for two days when AEMET did not publish the data) Fuengirola 14,65ºC Almeria Airport 13,20ºC Seville Airport 12,49ºC Once again the coast of Malaga reached temperatures much higher than Sevilla and Almeria Airports. In the same period Palaiohora/Paleochora 13,21ºC (except for one day when HNMS did not publish the data) and Rodos/Rhodes 12,83ºC All data are official from AEMET (Spain) and HNMS (Greece). You can see all data on the following link: http://www.meteopt.com/forum/climatologia/os-locais-mas-quentes-do-... Bye!!! Edited by Ferreiro 16/3/2011 11:13
Mesogeiakos	Posted 16/3/2011 11:11 (#616872 - in reply to #616868) Subject: RE: Project Europe: Highest Annual Mean Temperature Trial
Offline Location: North London	Ferreiro - 16/3/2011 10:54 After the first half of March, average temperatures were as follows Malaga Puerto 15,08ºC (except for two days when AEMET did not publish the data) Fuengirola 14,65ºC Almeria Airport 13,20ºC Seville Airport 12,49ºC Once again the coast of Malaga reached temperatures much higher than Sevilla and Almeria Airports. In the same period Palaiohora 13,21ºC (except for one day when HNMS did not publish the data) and Rodos 12,83ºC All data are official from AEMET (Spain) and HNMS (Greece). You can see all data on the following link: http://www.meteopt.com/forum/climatologia/os-locais-mas-quentes-do-... Bye!!! Ferreiro/Italianboy, Ian also provides the offical AEMET and HNMS data as well periodically and does a much better job than youl!Hello mate And let's see how Greece will do after the cold snap has passed!!The whole of March will give a much more balanced mean for Greece,given that the bad weather has now passed.I give Spain 7-8 days before Greece retakes all top spots for March. Meanwhile Ian,do you have the data for Karpathos so far for March?It must be higher than Palaiohora I think Edited by Mesogeiakos 16/3/2011 11:19
Ian Williams	Posted 16/3/2011 16:45 (#616909 - in reply to #616868) Subject: RE: Project Europe: Highest Annual Mean Temperature Trial
Online Location: Plymouth / St Germans	Ferreiro - 16/3/2011 10:54 After the first half of March, average temperatures were as follows Malaga Puerto 15,08ºC (except for two days when AEMET did not publish the data) Fuengirola 14,65ºC Almeria Airport 13,20ºC Seville Airport 12,49ºC Once again the coast of Malaga reached temperatures much higher than Sevilla and Almeria Airports. In the same period Palaiohora/Paleochora 13,21ºC (except for one day when HNMS did not publish the data) and Rodos/Rhodes 12,83ºC All data are official from AEMET (Spain) and HNMS (Greece). You can see all data on the following link: http://www.meteopt.com/forum/climatologia/os-locais-mas-quentes-do-... Bye!!! Hmmm, Your data is incorrect! I too have been getting all the data from AEMET and HNMS, On the occassions AEMET have not published the maximum and minimums i have used the hourly data, and for minimums deducted 0.5C and for the maximums added 0.5C, this has occurred to Fuengirola, Estepona and Malaga Port. You say coast of Malaga has seen the highest temps, not the case on the 7th March though eh? 7th March Andujar 22.6C Seville 22.0C Moron 20.4C Malaga Port 18.5C Fuengirola 18.0C Estepona 16.5C --------------------------------------- You also have to be careful with AEMET because it will publish its max and min temps even if they occur outside the accepted hours, i.e min temp at 1420 hours or max temp at 2300 hrs. The accepted standard is Minimum temp 2100hrs to 0900 hours and for Max temps from 0900 hrs to 2100 hrs. This is how most if not all countries record their temperatures. So my figures adapt to that measure I will post a full list later tonight, but for starters here are the top 8 and their Means 1st to 15th March Malaga Port 14.64C Fuengirola 14.63C Estepona 13.53C Almeria 13.43C Karpathos 12.96C Palaiohora 12.87C Ierapetra 12.62C Seville 12.54C  Edited by Ian Williams 16/3/2011 16:55 ----- Ian Williams UKww Warnings Team
Ian Williams	Posted 16/3/2011 17:03 (#616911 - in reply to #570056) Subject: Re: Project Europe: Highest Annual Mean Temperature Trial
Online Location: Plymouth / St Germans	Post Edit....Its all academic lets see what happens in the summer months, Murcia will not be able to come near Attica and Andulucia mean temperatures, especially the Port of Malaga, the airport is hotter in summer for Malaga due to being in land away from the cooling sea breezes ----- Ian Williams UKww Warnings Team
Mesogeiakos	Posted 16/3/2011 18:13 (#616920 - in reply to #570056) Subject: Re: Project Europe: Highest Annual Mean Temperature Trial
Offline Location: North London	Thanks Ian!However,I think Murcia was never really,a big player in mean temps from Spain(unless you meant Malaga).But you are right about the summer means of Attica compared to Port of Malaga.Annually though Athens is cooler than south iberia coastal areas while Crete and SE Dodecanese warmer than all the rest according to the published means of HNMS for the relevant time series. Edited by Mesogeiakos 16/3/2011 18:14
Ian Williams	Posted 16/3/2011 18:21 (#616925 - in reply to #616920) Subject: Re: Project Europe: Highest Annual Mean Temperature Trial
Online Location: Plymouth / St Germans	oops yep i meant Malaga (ScreenShot185.jpg) Attachments ---------------- ScreenShot185.jpg (61KB - 4 downloads) ----- Ian Williams UKww Warnings Team
Mesogeiakos	Posted 16/3/2011 19:18 (#616940 - in reply to #570056) Subject: Re: Project Europe: Highest Annual Mean Temperature Trial
Offline Location: North London	Thanks Ian for pointing out the methodological errors of the calculations that are done in the Portuguese forum and thanks for the valuable data you present each time!! Edited by Mesogeiakos 16/3/2011 19:19

Ferreiro	Posted 17/3/2011 08:45 (#617001 - in reply to #616909) Subject: RE: Project Europe: Highest Annual Mean Temperature Trial
Offline	p> Hmmm, Your data is incorrect! I too have been getting all the data from AEMET and HNMS, On the occassions AEMET have not published the maximum and minimums i have used the hourly data, and for minimums deducted 0.5C and for the maximums added 0.5C, this has occurred to Fuengirola, Estepona and Malaga Port That's the key. As you know AEMET did not released temperature data from Malaga Puerto during the 3rd and 4th March. And HNMS did not released mininum temperature data from Palaiohora on 10th March too. I only calculate average temperature with official data. Thus the average temperature of Malaga Port from 1 to March 15 has been of 15.08ºC with released data from AEMET. Then you calculate the temperature on your own during those days. I do not know how you did, because the station AEMET offered only incomplete data on 3th and 4th March and the same from HNMS for Palaiohora on 11th March. Doesn`t matter. One way or another Malaga Port has been the warmest in first half of March, as it was in February. I'll see you later this month. I bet Fuengirola and Malaga Port will lead the list by far. Who is Italianoboy? My name is Ferreiro! [URL=http://img193.images.../i/workrx.jpg/] Edited by Ferreiro 17/3/2011 08:48 (Work.JPG) Attachments ---------------- Work.JPG (42KB - 2 downloads)
Mesogeiakos	Posted 17/3/2011 10:13 (#617010 - in reply to #617001) Subject: RE: Project Europe: Highest Annual Mean Temperature Trial
Offline Location: North London	Italianboy,I think you are wrong. Apart from your difficulty in calculating correctly the values as Ian has pointed out,you must be aware that it is really difficult for any part of the Iberian Peninsula to actually compete on annual temps with the warm spots of Greece.You might want to look the official HNMS means and compare them with AEMET.As you can see there is no location warmer than Ierapetra officially in Europe. What do you mean that you bet that those areas will be warmer by far?Do you mean for March ,while Greece had an extreme cold snap?Also off course Port of Malaga or any part of the Iberian Peninsula was NOT the warmest for February.The data you present are only for 18 days of February and also by now we are made aware of your difficulty in calculating basic data Just a reminder for January 2011 and not for 18 days of Feb or 15 days of March ,Karpathos was the warmest place in Europe!!Did you forget that? I bet that by the summer the maximum temps of Port of Malaga will be almost the same with the minimums! of Palaiohora.It might help you if you could calculate your data more precisely by following Ian's advice,who is also keeping a record. You cant compare apples with oranges Italianboy/Ferrairo/Dedalus. Edited by Mesogeiakos 17/3/2011 10:19
Ian Williams	Posted 17/3/2011 10:39 (#617013 - in reply to #570056) Subject: RE: Project Europe: Highest Annual Mean Temperature Trial
Online Location: Plymouth / St Germans	OK Ferreiro, Here is my data for the same locations you have given, yes Malaga port was missing the max and min temps for the 3rd and 4th, so i use the hourly temps using AEMET or Wetter. I deduct 0.5C off the hourly minimum and add 0.5C to the hourly maximum, to get the minimum and maximum. This is a better way than to ignore any data available. It was ironic that Malaga Port had 2 cool days when missing data occurred. Palaiohora had a minimum missing on the 10th so for this i used my back up station for Palaiohora supplied by the National Observatory of Athens http://www.wetter24.de/de/home/wetter/deutschland/wetter-stationen/obsid/8479.html http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/bolam/index.htm Scroll down on the left side to Observations NOA click on it then select Paleochora-Chania All other data for Paliahora is from HNMS. I explained to you about the timings of minimums and maximums, Spain issues mins and maxes anytime of the day so some adjustments must be made.  I am not here to favour any country or area, but do you really think Malaga Port can compete with Seville and Athens in the summer? Both Elefsina and Seville had mean temps of 30.6C last August with Elefsina just shading it over Seville by a miniscule margin.    (ScreenShot202.jpg) Attachments ---------------- ScreenShot202.jpg (54KB - 1 downloads) ----- Ian Williams UKww Warnings Team
Ian Williams	Posted 17/3/2011 10:44 (#617015 - in reply to #570056) Subject: Re: Project Europe: Highest Annual Mean Temperature Trial
Online Location: Plymouth / St Germans	Not sure if you can see this but heres my data for the 3rd and 4th relating to Malaga Port, if we look at similar places for surrounding areas for Spain it fits well (ScreenShot204.jpg) Attachments ---------------- ScreenShot204.jpg (36KB - 2 downloads) ----- Ian Williams UKww Warnings Team

[Ian Williams]

Ferreiro, Here is an example, No max min data for Estepona yesterday from AEMET but there is hourly data if you look at the charts below i have highlighted the hourly minimum and maximum, i then deduct 0.5C from the minimum so it becomes 9.9C and add 0.5C to the maximum so it becomes 18.4C, this is a better way than to totally ignore the data, especially in a cold or hot spell, your end figures would be wide of the mark. I know its not brilliant but its better in getting close to accurate end of the month figures

[Ian Williams]

Quote

Ferreiro - 17/3/2011 11:58 You are doing a good job Ian. I think you are impartial. I have no doubt about it. Of course Seville will be hot in summer, but don't despise Malaga Puerto or Fuengirola. In summer Seville probably will be hotter than Malaga Port, but in terms of annual temperature the coast of Malaga will be warmer. Bye!!!

I take it you mean Malaga will be warmer than Seville annually? OK i think that could be close but im not convinced. If you are saying Malaga would be warmer than Crete annually then i know you would be wrong on that one.

[Mesogeiakos]

Thanks Ian,brilliant work as always:)!! Oh and I like the thread title!!

[Mesogeiakos]

Quote

If you are saying Malaga would be warmer than Crete annually then i know you would be wrong on that one.

Exactly,I think it will take more than 18 days of data for February(actually less days on record) with a hot spell in Iberia and 15 days of March data with a cold snap in Greece to actually suggest that Crete will be cooler annually.

[Ian Williams]

Thanks Pit,
The trouble is AEMET does not have any past data for Malaga Port, Estepona and Fuengirola, are they newish stations like Andujar? Now these three station may turn out warmer annually than Seville, because i have no past data, certainly it would seem they are warmer during the winter months, especially their minimums. However i can positively say that the likes of Karpathos, Ierapetra, Palaiohora and even Rhodes (Rodos) are all warmer annually than anywhere in Spain.

[Mesogeiakos]

Ferreiro,with the limitations listed below

1.Only 18 day of Feb data with an extreme heat spell in Spain
2.Only 15 day of March data with an extreme cold snap in Greece
3.With methodological errors in your calculations pointed out by Ian

Btw March is not over again and correct me if I am wrong but in January it was Karpathos the warmest area in Europe according to the official data in absence of the data from South Crete.

[Ian Williams]

Quote

Ferreiro - 17/3/2011 12:42 What matters are the official data. Within one year we will know. I began my research on February 10. In March is happening the same. I suspected in January was the same too. Official data from AEMET and HNMS from 10th February until 28th February.

OK Im happy for you to post your data, and i will post my data some of which will be adjusted if it needs to, I dont think our figures will be way out. But lets start this from March 1st for this thread OK? I will not post daily but say one or 2 times a week with my up to date data ok?

[Mesogeiakos]

I think from March onwards is a good idea Ian,the Feb data we have are really for 18 days (actually for even less days in various locations) plus Karpathos data are missing.

[ldavidcooke]

Hey Guys,

This is part of the battle in climate change as well, how do you handle a non-reporting day/month?

Doing as NASA did with gridding, or NOAA did with adjusted proximity substitution or even Ian's hourly +/- 0.5, when all is totaled even for the week will be different at a greater decimal precision value then the decimal precision of the data. (IE: 6 values say 1.5 totals to 9 or averages at 1.5, 7 values with 6 at 1.5 and one null or 0 and we get 1.2857142 ad nauseum. Since the precision was one decimal the output would be either 1.2 or rounded up 1.3.)

If we followed Ian's procedure (say the hourly was 1.2) we get an average weekly value of 1.5285714 or either 1.5 or 1.6 if you round up. So which is the more accurate?

Doing a little extra data table and calculation work/definition it is possible to only use those days for which you have a valid entry.
(Note: Two primary failures of spreadsheet and data base engine designs: 1. An empty/null field once you enter data in it and remove the data it is no longer null. 2. Formula value calculations will allow non-integer values and give them a value of zero.)

It is quite possible that everyone can be looking at the same data and get different results.

Cheers!
Dave

[Mesogeiakos]

Thanks Dave,

I see what you mean.It is a hassle all right!But even for days of valid entries there are limitations,for example say 14 days of data from one location compared to 28 days from another location,can we reach good results?I mean how do we address this?

[ldavidcooke]

Hey Pit,

It requires you put more sophistication into the effort. As to which is the most accurate a representation the best way is to report say both the average and the valid data count: Such as X-site reported an average temperature of 1.5C over 14 days while Z-site reported 1.3C over 28 days reporting.

What makes it more difficult for climate change is to be valid statistically the number of values being averaged should be a mininum of 30. So what do you do if between say 1949 and 1979 you are missing the average temperature for June the 1st 5 times. I would suggest using up to three values on either side of the central date in the calculation as it would be more representative then applying "fudge factors". Even if the margins contained outliers it at least are based on actual measures, hence allows for testing of the recording instrument and instrument interpretation.

As long as you document the process you used to arrive at your conclusion it is valid for the work you have done. If it differs from other works the two different processes/approaches should be tested either by the competing sources or an independent jury of peers.

Cheers!
Dave

[Ian Williams]

Interesting Dave, I think what i will do for the problematic spanish stations is run both Ferreiro`s method and my own. With missing days without the max and min temps im currently using the hourly data, what if i were not to subtract the 0.5 to the hourly minimum and not add the 0.5 to the maximum, would this be considered more scientific/accurate than just excluding it altogether?

Below is an example of Ferreiro`s and my own data for Malaga, there are a couple of discrepencies because Ferreiro uses the 24 hr min and maxes supplied by AEMET, i.e Max occured at 2350 hrs or a min temp occurring at 1420 hrs, when the Greek stations and likewise the UK uses mins between 2100 and 0900 hrs and maxes between 0900hrs and 2100hrs. So again if this happens i use the hourly minimum between the times i use to try and get like for like.

Minefield springs to mind!

[ldavidcooke]

Hey Ian,

Both are valid, it depends on the application. Measured values with time stamp will always be more valid in a data table.

(As to the analysis, there is nothing wrong with modulating the peaks with a standard value as long as you can demonstrate that the adjustment value when compared to known values, match within the significant values.

(IE: max. of 1.2C +0.3 at 1500 or -1.2C -.03 at 0600 versus a measure 1.5 min./max. would demonstrate a good "fudge factor". Even if it were +0.4 (1.6) for the max. and -0.3 (-1.5) the min. the difference to two significant values would match, not rolled-up.)

Hence, testing of the value at a given time as opposed to the maximum will provide a "fudge factor" for that site, if a random set of 30 values within a year can be defined. You would likely want to do this same test for each poor data record site. Then compare your sites and see if the "fudge factor" is valid for both or can you average the different values to get a "universal fudge factor" value. Like I said a lot of work up front; but, scientifically defensible.

As to which source to use, If the apllications are human activity oriented you would use the daytime 0900-1700 window. If the applications are water vapor limited solar energy flux or thermal dynamicaly oriented you would likely employ the 24hr. min./max.

(In the later case you should pair the prior days max. with current days min., if you want to demonstrate residual energy. You should use todays min./max. to represents the atmospheres impedance or thermal inertia. But, that is getting entirely to complex for your application and this Forum or thread.)

Cheers!
Dave

[Mesogeiakos]

While today 17.9C in Herakleion and 16.8C in Palaiohora and Karpathos as mean temps.From now on and especially from April onwards South Greece will see as always much higher minimums.Palaiohora would be SO interesting to watch in terms of its means from April onwards!!Especially in the summer the minimums of Palaiohora will be close to the maximums of coastal Iberia

http://www.hnms.gr/h...region=ObsCrete

[Costa]

Doe Portugal fix on this thread too? :D

[Ian Williams]

Quote

Costa - 18/3/2011 22:29 Doe Portugal fix on this thread too? :D

Yeah why not :-)