: Nice Warm S/E England Should Pay Wales For Water -

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Nice Warm S/E England Should Pay Wales For Water

#1 User is online   Uskys 

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 22:28

Why should those in SE England expect free water from Wales where folk have to endure 4 times as much rainfall and 8 times as many rainy days as those in the sunnier climes? (joke)

From the BBC

Extract:

The Institute of Civil Engineers (ICE) has called for a water network, similar to the national electricity grid, to help move water to drought areas.

The idea was mooted by London mayor Boris Johnson last year.

The Welsh government said the people of Wales should receive proper value for "this vital resource".

On Monday the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) revealed that much of southern and eastern England was officially in a state of drought.

Hosting a drought summit Environment Secretary Caroline Spelman said groundwater levels in parts of south-east England were lower than in the infamously dry summer of 1976.

A recent UK government water white paper, Water For Life, called for greater interconnection in the UK's water supply system so that resources could be used more flexibly and efficiently.

'National grid'

This call has been echoed by Keith Jones, director of ICE Wales Cymru.

"We have a national grid for electricity, there ought to be some sort of way of naturally transferring water," said Mr Jones.

"There should be a way of moving water from non-drought areas to drought areas.

"As civil engineers anything is possible in terms of building an infrastructure, though we would have to find a way of doing it sustainably."

Severn Trent Water, which supplies water in mid Wales, as well in the English midlands, said it fully supported "water trading".

"Over the last six months Severn Trent has focused on moving raw water supplies across its water 'grid' from the wetter West to the drier East to balance," said a spokesman.

The Wales Office said the transfer of water out of Wales was a matter for the Welsh government.

The Welsh government said there had been no discussions between the Welsh and UK governments about moving water from Wales to parts of England.


To date the UK government had not approached the Welsh government to discuss the matter, said a spokesman.

The spokesman said: "The Welsh government has been clear that any discussion on this issue will be on the basis that the people of Wales should receive proper value for this vital resource and where the environment in Wales is properly protected.

"The current water resource position in Wales is healthy with strategic reservoirs at, or very near to, full capacity.

"This is to be expected for this time of year, but if we have a dry spring, such as those of the last three years, the situation could deteriorate quite rapidly.

"The Welsh government is working closely with the water industry and the Environment Agency in Wales to monitor the situation."

Earlier, speaking on BBC Radio 2's Jeremy Vine show on Tuesday, Plaid Cymru MP Elfyn Llwyd said Wales should receive "a commercial return" for any water it supplied.

The Dwyfor Meirionnydd MP said: "I have to say being realistic, I see no reason why if the Welsh government, with the support of the Welsh people, say we want to come to some accommodation, let's go ahead and do it.

'Commercial return'

"We will have an amicable agreement with our friends in England but on a commercial basis and I think that's entirely appropriate."

Mr Llwyd said: "I would be more than happy for the Welsh government to decide - in discussion with Westminster - we will supply you with water, the Welsh people are fully in support of that, but there should be a commercial return."

He added: "It's not going to be an Opec situation where all of a sudden, a litre of water goes up 10-fold. None of that, just a reasonable, amicable, commercial arrangement."

In a newspaper article last June Boris Johnson called for rain from the mountains of the UK to be used to to tackle water shortages in drier UK areas.

He said he had been in touch with Prof Roger Falconer of Cardiff University, and both believed a possible solution could be to move water via rivers and canals.

His comments prompted former Plaid Cymru leader Dafydd Wigley to call for compensation should water supplies be taken from Wales to ease shortages in England.

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#2 User is offline   Bazmundo 

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 23:26

Not dissimilar to the native residents of Alaska (as there is a seasonal population of comparative size) who are paid a share of the oil revenue. That said, and by similar analogy, perhaps it is only those living in the SE who were born elsewhere in the nation or otherwise who should pay the Welsh? (not a joke)
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#3 User is offline   Ian Williams 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:13

You can have ours if you like in the SW, if your`e prepared to pay SWW prices, average annual bill here is over £700 :(
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#4 User is online   StephenS 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 03:45

... but not for those of us without mains drainage! Our water bill is less than £12 a month, though I won't feel quite so smug about that if the cesspit ever fails.

We can joke (or not joke) about the Welsh story as much as we like, but there are two serious issues here. First, we've been several times round the Wrekin when it comes to a national water grid, and I've no doubt it will all be forgotten when the heavens open in the SE, as they surely will - only to be resurrected again in another 40 years' time, or whenever. Second, devolution/independence will throw up so many questions about who pays for what that I suspect that everyone, for and agin, will wish they'd never gone there in the first place.

This post has been edited by StephenS: 22 February 2012 - 03:46

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#5 User is online   Chris Alder 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 12:32

This thread has really got my back up, especially the intial story, if the Welsh want to charge for water - let them I say. Maybe they should also consider self funding through Welsh domiciled taxpayers the huge average per person benefit payouts their civilians recieve compared to those in the south east?

Its all swings and roundabouts! People always seem happy to bite the hand that feeds them when it suits them.....
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#6 User is offline   lancing 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 12:49

Bit of a pointless article since virtually no Welsh water is consumed in the South East of England unless you think Birmingham is no longer a Midland city..

None of the water companies in the South East are in favour of a national water grid, probably because it might disturb their cozy monopoly of supply,

This post has been edited by lancing: 22 February 2012 - 12:52

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#7 User is online   Uskys 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 13:35

Water should never have been made a commercial product in the UK - I can see how dwr cymru & severn trent could charge water companies in the east but not how Wales can charge!
A link from the Severn to the Thames has been talked of in the past apart from pipelines.
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#8 User is online   Nigel Bolton 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 14:03

View PostChris Alder, on 22 February 2012 - 12:32, said:

This thread has really got my back up, especially the intial story, if the Welsh want to charge for water - let them I say. Maybe they should also consider self funding through Welsh domiciled taxpayers the huge average per person benefit payouts their civilians recieve compared to those in the south east?

Its all swings and roundabouts! People always seem happy to bite the hand that feeds them when it suits them.....


Indeed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16812185

N.
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#9 User is offline   John Mason 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 15:06

Funny - quite a few of the comments following my Guardian piece were along the lines of "well up here in Scotland we the people still own our water so if you want it you'll have to pay for it!"

In Wales this is still a very emotive topic. There is a lot of resent as to valley communities uprooted and flooded to supply water to the English. It is a Very Bad Idea Indeed to make jokes about Tryweryn (Llyn Celyn) in a pub in Bala on a Saturday night - and rightly so IMO - this was a bit like the Highland Clearances except that it didn't happen that long ago.

Here's a link that explains what happened: http://www.llgc.org....ryn/index-e.htm

Cheers - John
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#10 User is offline   Bazmundo 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 15:17

From a purely logistical PoV, is the question posed not one of simple pipeline transfer of current surplus* rather than a new hydro-engineering project? I'd have to agree that a new reservoir would be a contentious proposition to say the least.

* either volume or expected comparative catchment.
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#11 User is online   Dave K 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 15:34

Well imagine that SE England had a surplus of, let's say, building aggregate resources and Wales had insufficient for construction projects. Would commercial enterprises and communities here be happy to simply gave it away without any economic benefits at all to us? Rather disingenous in this strongly pro free-market capitalist trade loving part of the world to suggest that it's somehow unfair to expect a return for services and goods rendered...chwarae teg!
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#12 User is online   Uskys 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 15:40

View PostBazmundo, on 22 February 2012 - 15:17, said:

From a purely logistical PoV, is the question posed not one of simple pipeline transfer of current surplus* rather than a new hydro-engineering project? I'd have to agree that a new reservoir would be a contentious proposition to say the least.

* either volume or expected comparative catchment.


Its almost ready to go... see Thames and Severn Canal Map .. Theres a tunnel already built.

It should be a case of Abstraction from the Severn , then subsequent abstraction from the Thames Into the existing SE Network.
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#13 User is offline   Andy Mayhew 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 16:44

If Wales don't want their water going to England, I suggest they find an alternative to eating bread ;)

But anyway, the English don't need any more Welsh water. They already have Kielder. Eventually we'll get that pipeline dug ....... though I bet before then we have a run of wet winters in the south with widespread flooding.
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#14 User is offline   John Mason 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 16:51

View PostBig Dave, on 22 February 2012 - 15:34, said:

Well imagine that SE England had a surplus of, let's say, building aggregate resources and Wales had insufficient for construction projects. Would commercial enterprises and communities here be happy to simply gave it away without any economic benefits at all to us? Rather disingenous in this strongly pro free-market capitalist trade loving part of the world to suggest that it's somehow unfair to expect a return for services and goods rendered...chwarae teg!


Naah - we're OK we've got more rock than anyone could ever need over here and all! I don't eat a lot of bread, enjoy a bit of lamb every week, my guinness comes from Ireland and my vino from lots of countries. Starting to run out of things they could exchange for water ;)

Cheers - John
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#15 User is offline   Andy Mayhew 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 17:30

Thinking about it, anyone know where I can lay my hands on a 500 mile long hosepipe? I could run it up to Essan and get limitless free water down here - and it tastes a lot better too! :D
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#16 User is offline   scrapemedic 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 17:42

Maybe the welsh should pay God for supplying it in the first place, or if your atheist, the people of the SE for sweating it back up into the atmosphere. Bottom line, if the idea came from Boris Johnson in the first place....end of story right there. The man is an idiot.
What he really should be doing is sorting out the abomination of front gardens round here that only serve to encourage the rainwater to run off into the sewer and hence the rivers rather than into the ground water. Not to mention the back gardens that have been turns into granny flats, mostly illegally. They might look better too rather than the concrete that is presently in vogue. But god forbid he tells Londoners what they should be doing rather than coming up with hair-brained ideas that let them off the hook of responsibility.
The term concrete jungle was once the domain of the inner cities, but you could easily apply it to the suburbs now too.
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#17 User is online   Nigel Bolton 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 17:50

We'll all be wishing that we have huge butts next.

N.
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#18 User is offline   Bluebreezer54 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 18:57

View Postscrapemedic, on 22 February 2012 - 17:42, said:

........ Bottom line, if the idea came from Boris Johnson in the first place....end of story right there. The man is an idiot.

What he really should be doing is sorting out the abomination of front gardens round here that only serve to encourage the rainwater to run off into the sewer and hence the rivers rather than into the ground water. Not to mention the back gardens that have been turns into granny flats, mostly illegally. They might look better too rather than the concrete that is presently in vogue. But god forbid he tells Londoners what they should be doing rather than coming up with hair-brained ideas that let them off the hook of responsibility.
The term concrete jungle was once the domain of the inner cities, but you could easily apply it to the suburbs now too.



While I agree the concreting over of the suburbs is continuing apace, much of it illegally, its not all down to 'granny flats'. Much of it is due to pure greed and exploitation. I expect to be lambasted for posting this article from the Daily Mail, but I can assure you this is exactly what is happening in many West London suburbs. The population is exploding, and the resources, legal or otherwise, are diminishing day by day. I would give anything to be able to leave this place.

http://www.dailymail...immigrants.html
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#19 User is offline   John Mason 

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 20:00

View PostNigel Bolton, on 22 February 2012 - 17:50, said:

We'll all be wishing that we have huge butts next.

N.


Not me personally, Nigel. I would look a bit silly if that was the case ;)

Cheers - John
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#20 Guest_Chris Lloyd_*

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 20:12

View PostIan Williams, on 22 February 2012 - 03:13, said:

You can have ours if you like in the SW, if your`e prepared to pay SWW prices, average annual bill here is over £700 :(


Need to get yourself a water meter Ian. Our annual bill for water is about 240 pounds. :)

If you pay rates, which I am guessing you do by the bill, you can't blame the system when cheaper water is available.

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