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What you then need to do is work out how a river could cut such a deep channel subaerially unless you had the corresponding low sea levels. Those 200 quintillions of ice locked up one heck of a lot of water!
The Med is one of those funny cyclic seas: the vast thicknesses of evaporite deposits beneath the seabed bears testimony to this.
Cheers - John
Ancient footprints found in peat at Borth Beach
#22
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Posted 22 March 2012 - 18:55
Hey John,
Does this then mean we are not at cross purposes anymore? I grant peat moss is a boggy plant; growing in a wet, gloppy, highly organic environment. However, a fresh water, seasonally boggy marsh is a reasonable explanation for the evidence set so far.
Intruth, it would be very likely to have these markers in a Glacerial/Tundra plain, with no ocean intrusion, or sulfite loving bacterium involved. The end result would be this site may never have seen a salt water intrusion..., until today...
Looking further the tannic acid content of the bog would be very high. This again would counter that the footprint medium would have had a salt marsh character, as you seem to have suggested earlier. Matter of fact, were this region a sulfurous salt marsh it would be highly unlikely that either bovine or human evidence would have been found, salt flat/black flies, nats and no-see-ems abound, you would not have been able to open your eyes... In short, to have evidence of a presence, you have to have a reason for that presence.
So a salt marsh and a gloppy swampy explanation is likely out... Given that, what other then peat mining would create a need to traverse the area, by both man and beast?..., and possibly, Independently!?
Does this then mean we are not at cross purposes anymore? I grant peat moss is a boggy plant; growing in a wet, gloppy, highly organic environment. However, a fresh water, seasonally boggy marsh is a reasonable explanation for the evidence set so far.
Intruth, it would be very likely to have these markers in a Glacerial/Tundra plain, with no ocean intrusion, or sulfite loving bacterium involved. The end result would be this site may never have seen a salt water intrusion..., until today...
Looking further the tannic acid content of the bog would be very high. This again would counter that the footprint medium would have had a salt marsh character, as you seem to have suggested earlier. Matter of fact, were this region a sulfurous salt marsh it would be highly unlikely that either bovine or human evidence would have been found, salt flat/black flies, nats and no-see-ems abound, you would not have been able to open your eyes... In short, to have evidence of a presence, you have to have a reason for that presence.
So a salt marsh and a gloppy swampy explanation is likely out... Given that, what other then peat mining would create a need to traverse the area, by both man and beast?..., and possibly, Independently!?
#23
Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:43
More photos: http://www.geologywa...s/spring12a.htm
I've drafted a more in-depth piece for Skeptical Science - will link to that once it emerges from the ether!
Cheers - John
I've drafted a more in-depth piece for Skeptical Science - will link to that once it emerges from the ether!
Cheers - John
#24
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- LocationGraham, NC USA
Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:21
Hey John,
Thanks for that link, now that makes much more sense. The tidal intrusion may not have occured until the last thousand years. It would be as expected to have been more recent as the isotatic rebound to the north, the reaction would be a leveling out of the tip up of the plate to the south.
A shift by nlt 3 meters would be required to make a difference to a woodland coastal forest. Add in another meter for sub-marine/surface entombment and you have a great example how isostatic change when coupled with sea ice melt can confound the △ in the MSL.
Curious what the former shoreline looked like at between 4-8 meters depth (2-4 fathoms) off todays coast... If there were high levels of Bi-valves or tidal pools this would certainly offer an alternative to a peat mining operation. Given the split rock fragments, it looks a lot like a coastal Maine Clam bake.
A few hundred crustations, some fish, and a bushel of sea weed all over a hot, rock lined, charcoal pit. When all is cooked a few buckets/skins of water to cool the rocks, then pull back the sea weed and then a sea food feast, had by all. Now that makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for that link, now that makes much more sense. The tidal intrusion may not have occured until the last thousand years. It would be as expected to have been more recent as the isotatic rebound to the north, the reaction would be a leveling out of the tip up of the plate to the south.
A shift by nlt 3 meters would be required to make a difference to a woodland coastal forest. Add in another meter for sub-marine/surface entombment and you have a great example how isostatic change when coupled with sea ice melt can confound the △ in the MSL.
Curious what the former shoreline looked like at between 4-8 meters depth (2-4 fathoms) off todays coast... If there were high levels of Bi-valves or tidal pools this would certainly offer an alternative to a peat mining operation. Given the split rock fragments, it looks a lot like a coastal Maine Clam bake.
A few hundred crustations, some fish, and a bushel of sea weed all over a hot, rock lined, charcoal pit. When all is cooked a few buckets/skins of water to cool the rocks, then pull back the sea weed and then a sea food feast, had by all. Now that makes a lot of sense.
#25 Guest_Chris Lloyd_*
Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:21
Is there a suggestion that sea levels are dropping then? There must have been plenty of Spring tides before that should have shown them up?
This year is not a particularly good Bore year. Given that, the amounts of good low tides will also be poor as well.
This year is not a particularly good Bore year. Given that, the amounts of good low tides will also be poor as well.
This post has been edited by Chris Lloyd: 23 March 2012 - 13:25
#26
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Posted 23 March 2012 - 13:34
Hey Chris,
Unlikely, if you catch the sedimentation description. First you are looking at a series of Low tide photos, this places the sandy beach about 1/2 meter below the Mean Sea Level. Next look for roughly a 10cm coating of sand over roughly 30-40cm of salt marsh, peaty matrix. The a sandy boundry of roughly 10cm, (not unlike the current surface deposit). Below which is the Fresh Water Bog and woodland forest, likely with trails leading from the interior to the coast.
If I were to offer a good guess, it would have been likely for a village or some 10 or so families to have made a seasonal/annual pilgrimage to the coast. As to the MSL, no, clearly the ocean is advancing on the shore. Only the rate of change is changing...
Unlikely, if you catch the sedimentation description. First you are looking at a series of Low tide photos, this places the sandy beach about 1/2 meter below the Mean Sea Level. Next look for roughly a 10cm coating of sand over roughly 30-40cm of salt marsh, peaty matrix. The a sandy boundry of roughly 10cm, (not unlike the current surface deposit). Below which is the Fresh Water Bog and woodland forest, likely with trails leading from the interior to the coast.
If I were to offer a good guess, it would have been likely for a village or some 10 or so families to have made a seasonal/annual pilgrimage to the coast. As to the MSL, no, clearly the ocean is advancing on the shore. Only the rate of change is changing...
#27
Posted 23 March 2012 - 14:56
The forest bed appears periodically and has always done so, but this is the best exposure of it at the S end of the beach that anyone can recall, hence the new finds. Certainly hints of modern sealevel rise at the N end of the beach, where dunes that were advancing are now seeing erosion at the highest tides, that has steadily worsened in recent years. This is especially noticeable on the other side of the Estuary, to the W of Aberdyfi.
Like the idea of the clam-bake, Dave! Quachogs do wash up after big storms. Had a bucket of them in January, some of which we baked in the open fire at my local. With a bit of sweet chilli sauce they were a good munch!
Cheers - John
Like the idea of the clam-bake, Dave! Quachogs do wash up after big storms. Had a bucket of them in January, some of which we baked in the open fire at my local. With a bit of sweet chilli sauce they were a good munch!
Cheers - John
#28
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- LocationGraham, NC USA
Posted 23 March 2012 - 18:48
Hey John,
Kind of amazing to think that our 80 times Grandparents likely had a beach celebration/holiday and a "noon-er" similar to us and our families today. (Though the chilly or cocktail sauce was not likely present..., (a slice of horseradish may have been). I guess the biggest difference was the "SUV" we would take through the forest glens...
Though slower, their "SUV" was nearly as durable and capable even with the lower horse ("oxen") power... The main difference was the frequent fueling and a lack of being able to make the waste products "disappear"..., we wouldn't want to tailgate them, if you catch the drift... (It certainly would not have been mud that they were a slinging...)
Kind of amazing to think that our 80 times Grandparents likely had a beach celebration/holiday and a "noon-er" similar to us and our families today. (Though the chilly or cocktail sauce was not likely present..., (a slice of horseradish may have been). I guess the biggest difference was the "SUV" we would take through the forest glens...
Though slower, their "SUV" was nearly as durable and capable even with the lower horse ("oxen") power... The main difference was the frequent fueling and a lack of being able to make the waste products "disappear"..., we wouldn't want to tailgate them, if you catch the drift... (It certainly would not have been mud that they were a slinging...)
#30
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Posted 08 April 2012 - 13:40
Hey John,
Missed this earlier post. Read your article found only two issues, you suggest it was a squeshy marsh, I for one have not seen a sheep or goat "walk" through muck. The basic natural tendency of these beasts is to seek the high ground. The only case I had seen of prints in muck was a leaping from high ground to high ground with a close hoofed rebound in between, that is not the case here.
To get the print quality seen it would require a surface "break through" such as a hardend hardpan or dried mud break through. This would explain both the general lack of definition of the arch in the soft soled human foot, and the clear child print as they walked along beside an elder. Had there been briar, rocky or naturally forest floor littered surfaces the child more likely would have been shod as the elder. The evidence would seem to suggest a well traveled route with only the ocassional mud puddle... How certain are you of the conditions, the ones you are suggesting seem counter-intutive...
Missed this earlier post. Read your article found only two issues, you suggest it was a squeshy marsh, I for one have not seen a sheep or goat "walk" through muck. The basic natural tendency of these beasts is to seek the high ground. The only case I had seen of prints in muck was a leaping from high ground to high ground with a close hoofed rebound in between, that is not the case here.
To get the print quality seen it would require a surface "break through" such as a hardend hardpan or dried mud break through. This would explain both the general lack of definition of the arch in the soft soled human foot, and the clear child print as they walked along beside an elder. Had there been briar, rocky or naturally forest floor littered surfaces the child more likely would have been shod as the elder. The evidence would seem to suggest a well traveled route with only the ocassional mud puddle... How certain are you of the conditions, the ones you are suggesting seem counter-intutive...
#31
Posted 08 April 2012 - 13:56
Around here, marshy areas are often grazed by cattle and sheep. Not uncommon to see a cow up to its knees in the stuff! Salt-marsh lamb is a local speciality.
Was back there Friday when the team were taking cores from the beds. Interestingly the peat contained layers of charcoal.
Cheers - John
Was back there Friday when the team were taking cores from the beds. Interestingly the peat contained layers of charcoal.
Cheers - John
#32
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Posted 08 April 2012 - 15:08
Hey John,
Concur wrt cows, though not with sheep and especially not goats. As to saltmarsh lamb, not even evidence in South Carolina or Rode Island, most all sheep require high country to be ward of Ticks and other pests. I could see shorn sheep in muck as a protective coating similar to elephants; however, I've not encountered any such here in the States. Must be a different breed you raise on your coasts...
Concur wrt cows, though not with sheep and especially not goats. As to saltmarsh lamb, not even evidence in South Carolina or Rode Island, most all sheep require high country to be ward of Ticks and other pests. I could see shorn sheep in muck as a protective coating similar to elephants; however, I've not encountered any such here in the States. Must be a different breed you raise on your coasts...
#33
Posted 08 April 2012 - 15:49
Darned tasty the saltmarsh lamb is too. It seems sweeter, somehow. Quite nice with a helping of steamed marsh samphire, mind you so are most meats and fish! Something I look forward to every late summer.
It would be a really interesting project to get an artist to create an impression of this area back at that time, with the stands of woodland and the mudflats of the intertidal channel-margins. I expect it would have some similarities to the modern Estuary and its surroundings, just without any major Manmade structures.
Cheers - John
It would be a really interesting project to get an artist to create an impression of this area back at that time, with the stands of woodland and the mudflats of the intertidal channel-margins. I expect it would have some similarities to the modern Estuary and its surroundings, just without any major Manmade structures.
Cheers - John
